Reality is an illusion

[unreggae]

Is anybody interested iin taking the affirmative on this proposition in a debate at this venue?

[unreggae]

Attention Zipwelder

[WD12]

I suppose in the sense that each persons "reality" is a product of their unique experiences, upbringing, physical charachteristics, etc, that no two unique individuals would percieve the world or any situation exactly the same, even if standing side by side at the particular time.

My reality can never be the same as yours, and neither can I experience another persons reality. I guess that makes "reality" an illusion, at least if I attempt to imagine 'your' reality.

Since I'm not a psych or philosophy major I'm sure what I just wrote can be ripped apart, but what the hey, we're all friends here!

[Estelle]

I would phrase it a bit differently, but I think the idea is much the same.

Objectivity does not exist. Everything is subjective since everything is seen through your or my perception. That inevitably colours what we perceive.

Estelle

[unreggae]

Thank you all for your contributions to the debate. Where's mine? My modem died on August 5 and I just today got the replacement.

Very early in man's development he must have realized that through his senses and the senses of his fellows he pervceived very little and understood less of what existed and happened. Let's suppose that he thought that what existed and happened did so independent of anybody's perception or belief. Nobody should object if we define "reality" as the entirety of it, of all things and all processes as he imagined.

Now a school of philosophers, the solipsists, assert that reality, as early man must have imagined it, and as we just defined it, does not exist, i.e. is an illusion. All we really know is our selves and our senses, and that is all there is.

If anybody can prove or refute the proposition that reality is an illusion, he would probably become very famous. I find the issue much more difficult than I thought I would when I proposed the debate.

Imagine Mr. Proreality and Mr. Antirealiy, two people of average intelligence, common sense and experience of the world, standing together and looking at a statue of a man on a horse. Mr. Pro comments that the statue looks very solid and permanent, as if nothing could change or move it. Mr. Anti says "You are wrong, and the victim of an illusion, albeit a very persistent one. Actually, that statue exists only in your perception."

Nothing significant in that little exchange? Read it again. Mr. Anti is telling Mr. Pro that he is wrong! It is impossible to be wrong except in reference to some standard, which has to be reality. Mr. Anti, who thinks he is denying reality, is actually invoking it.

Play around with this, and see how many anti-reallty arguments are similarly reduceable to absurdity.

Do not take offense at the word "absurdity". In this context, it simply means self contradiction.

Unreggae

[skymouse]

I'm not sure I understand the proposition "reality is an illusion". I thought that, by definition, that which is "reality" is not illusory.

You could call my position a kind of naive realism. To me, if something is real, it's real. People may sometimes be mistaken about bits of reality, and some people have mental illnesses that mess up their ability to understand reality in a big way, but reality goes quietly on being real. I'm not mentally ill, therefore most of my understanding of reality is pretty sound, and as for the bits where my own understanding is lacking, then I have Science and experts to fall back on.

Many years ago I had a brain disorder that caused hallucinations and perceptual oddities, and I spent most of my childhood energies throwing off the vestiges of this frightening experience and becoming confident in reality. As a result, I see flirtations with "non-reality" (whether through drugs, solipsism, or sham philosophies) as a bizarre indulgence, at best a bourgois game, and at worst a leap into the abyss.

SM

[Adrian]

I would say that some forms of reality were objective, incontrovertible fact and which affect everyone. Take the natural laws which govern the universe for example, giving us day and night as well as the varied and beautiful seasons of the year. However, there are other forms of reality which are specific to each of us as individuals and only form part of our personal experience, not other people's. Because those realities are grounded in individual experience they may well be contested or doubted by others who have had different experiences which inform their understanding. :o

[unreggae]

Those who assert that reality is an illusion mean, I am sure, that the existence of reality is an illusion. If interested, look up Dr. Depak Chapra, who is surely intelligent enough to know better.

Thank you all for your thought-provoking contributions.

Best regards,

Unreggae

[DavidEngland99]

Everyday reality is clearly something of an illusion. I find it amazing that I can look at a solid table and know that it is mostly empty space with some tiny particle whizzing about obeying laws which seem completely bizarre (quantum mechanics).

Likewise, I find it even odder to think that when I look at Ger's site little bits of liquid crystal get twisted this way and that so I think I see women wetting themselves - even though probably all of them live miles away.

Then, after a while my body releases nitric oxide (no kidding) which gives me an erection. I think the same stuff works in women to get them horny.

I don't know if reality is an illusion, but it is certainly pretty strange!

David

[aquarian]

Brilliant topic unreggae.

I'm afraid, due to a lack of time, i will be somewhat of a minimalist in my contribution. To those not so well versed in philosophy, my argument is more easily placed in the context of the film: The Matrix: How do we know that we are not in the matrix; that which we perceive is not merely a computer generated environment.

To satisfy the rest, I must state that I agree with our French friend Descartes' statement: " cogito ergo sum," "I think therefore I am." We can prove that we exist, but little more can be proven.

i.e. we could be amoeba's daydreaming, but then again, perhaps amoebas don't exist in the alter- reality in whichj we exist.....and so on

sorry if i have caused any head aches

mike/ aquarian

[Ape]

Reality is an illusion in so far as there is not one single reality - everyone has a different perception of things and therefore construct their own reality - whether they are perceiving one thing in different ways or just living their own reality is analagous to how many universes there may or may not be. We can never (in our current state anyway) know for sure, we can just reason and argue - but the lack of agreement implies to me that there is no single reality in practice, even if there is one in theory!

[Indigo]

Reality may be an illusion, or it may not be.

BUT the only working hypothesis that makes any sense is that reality is NOT an illusion - because if it is then nothign makes sense.

Practical experience also suggests that the assumption that reality is real yields positive results most of the time, and this is generally very acceptable.

[~*~ k a t e ~*~]

I hate to put an end to this discussion, but I was just now chatting with God on ICQ and it turns out that reality is actually real, and not an illusion. So... there you go, in a nut-shell :)

I would have asked him a few more questions but I had to put him on ignore after he started wanting to "cyber"... gah...

[Crazyhorse]

Disclaimer: I do not pretend to be intelligent, so what follows is just the effect of beer and pies.

If you think about it in a logical sense, then what you see or hear is reality to you, but this assumes that you trust your brain to interpret correctly the signals that your eyes and ears are receiving.
I can look at a pink pair of knickers, both before and after wetting, but the colours I see may be unique to me. I shall never really know if anyone else sees the same pink as I do.

However, this can also be debated in a political sense. The reality that the global powers want you to see, is really an illusion created by them. You may think that the world is how it is, with thousands of people killed by an 'Act of God' tsunami, but how can you be sure? There is technology in place to create vibrations in the earths crust (search Google if you dont believe me), so who knows if it was a giant experiment that went wrong?

George (winner) Bush wants to create the illusion that he is giving vast amounts of money to the victims, but the reality is that he has set aside $50m just for his 'inauguration' (but he is already in the post).

[Indigo]

I don't pretend to be intelligent either, Crazyhorse.

[~*~ k a t e ~*~]

I do! LOL

[aquarian]

I, however, pretend, but intellectually fall far short of the mark, rather like a not so well endowed man a urinal.

Oh well....

Aquarian

[aquarian]

Ps.....Indigo, you sound a little too scientific/ logical for my humble yet creative, imbecilic, yet dramatic tastes.

Aquarian

[Indigo]

I guess that's what happens when you take a guy who did science A levels and turn him into a lawyer. LOL