Conspiracy theory

[Crazyhorse]

I have been reading stuff about the aircraft that crashed into the Pentagon on Sep 11 2001. I have always thought it rather strange that no video footage was ever shown of this event, unlike the World Trade Centre.
Apparently all CCTV footage, that might have shown something, was immediately confiscated by the authorities, and only a few stills are available.
The conspiracy centres around the 757 that crashed there, as in no published photos are any identifiable parts of a 757 visible. Reports say the plane hit the ground before ploughing into the building, which means it would have been flying at only a couple of hundred feet over parts of Washington and there are no eyewitness accounts that mention such a large plane at such low altitude. Not something people would forget easily. No amateur video seems to have been taken either, which is strange for a tourist city.
The planes engines would surely have parted company with the wings in that scenario, but no trace of engines or wings or tail or fuselage have been spotted in photographs.
What did happen?
Perhaps in the USA this has wider coverage.

[Justme]

Come to think of it, you're right-- I've never seen pictures or video with any parts of an aircraft obviously present. However, I have to say, especially as liberal and even moreso anti Bush as the media is, if this were some kind of coverup, and there was no aircraft involved or if it was in ANY way misrepresented, I GUARANTEE, the entire world would know about it.

[RDJay]

As far as I know, there has been nothing in the mainstream news media here in the U.S. about a conspiracy. You're right, though, it does seem that there should be a lot of amateur video footage and photographs around. But, then, the same is true of the attacks in NYC. I've only seen a handful of shots of those planes coming in...and you would think that there should be thousands of them. After all, it did happen smack dab in the middle of one of the world's largest cities....where I'm sure almost every store on every corner has one or more surveillance cameras, aimed up, down and sideways.

Dunno. It's a mystery to me. The Pentagon is a sensitive military installation, so I suspect they are picky about who takes pictures of what. But, based on their policies of late, I can't imagine there could be anyone clever enough in there to successfully suppress anything for very long.

[Crazyhorse]

A little Googling finds this,

http://www.cosmicpenguin.com/911/Eastman/m18h05.html

Can this be right?

And if so, why?

:?

Does the fact that Bush spent 7 minutes reading to children after being told the first aircraft had hit the World Trade Centre really suggest he was not surprised, rather than he didn't want to frighten the school-kids?

[RDJay]

Veddy interestink, Craz...! I am not one for conspiracy theories, but this does provide some tasty food for thought. As you know, the website you mention refers us to bunches of (perhaps 50 or more) other websites and discussion groups on this topic. When I get time, I will check some of them out.

You know, there is something else that has been bothering me for a while now: the elusiveness of Osama bin Laden. I find it highly peculiar that he never surfaces and is never mentioned by any of the al Qaeda leaders. If he were alive and still in charge, is it logical that he would remain silent for three years, leaving his operatives to carry on the so-called Jihad against the free world on their own?

Yet, if he were dead or incapacitated, I would expect that those close to him would either (1) show video after video of his body, or of his last days, in an attempt to supersize his image as the greatest martyr ever; or else (2) pretend that he is still alive and in charge by using every opportunity to present images, genuine or otherwise, of him speaking confidently to his followers. The fact that they never mention him at all is something I find troubling---considering this is supposed to be the most evil, the most dangerous, guy on the planet, and the one we are investing billions of dollars and thousands of lives to catch.

I'm not trying to add fuel to the conspiracy theories about 9/11, but what if (let's just suppose for a minute) bin Laden actually had nothing to do with the attacks? What if we are chasing the wrong guy?

We know that Atta, al-Hamdi and some of the others were directly connected with al Qaeda. But do we know that Osama bin Laden was (as we've been led to believe) their central figure and guiding spiritual force? Is it possible that he was then, and remains now, no more than a minor player, or is, at the very least, the leader of only one of many factions of al Qaeda---but NOT the faction involved in 9/11? Is it possible that he is being scapegoated for political reasons---in exactly the same manner Saddam Hussein has been?

My knowledge of 9/11 is sketchy...and, I confess, I have not read the 9/11 Commission's recent report...but, based on what I have seen in the media, bin Laden on one isolated occasion spoke proudly about how the 9/11 attacks went off better than he had expected. Most of us took that to mean that he was behind them. But, considering that he is renown for claiming credit for all sorts of terrorist attacks which he had nothing to do with, can we take this as reliable evidence that he was responsible? I have to wonder...

Most of what I have heard strikes me as speculation. I don't recall hearing any of the experts present what I would consider incontrovertible evidence that bin Laden himself knew about the impending attacks or was involved in their planning. But, as I say, maybe there is something in the 9/11 reports I am not familiar with. If anyone has ironclad information, or links to credible sources on this, I would love to hear about it.

I am certainly not a cheerleader for George Bush, but I consider it a huge stretch to imagine that he and his administration would intentionally kill thousands of people in a cockeyed hoax. If all of these pieces were to somehow start fitting together, however, it would make for a veddy interestink puzzle indeed!

[Crazyhorse]

Thanks RDJ, you have the same idea as I had some time ago about Bin Laden.

Before the invasion of Afghanistan he was seen on video all the time courtesy of Al Jazera TV, parading himself menacingly before the world. Since then, as you say, nothing, apart from a few brief sound recordings which might have been him, might not, or could have been recorded years ago. For someone who obviously loved his own video propaganda and who is supposed to be the most dangerous man on earth, it does seem to be rather a dramtic change of publicity tactics. Initially I assumed that he was dead, but wanted no-one to know because it would have been a huge moral victory to the alliance forces. Now, like you, I dont know what to think. Maybe he was severely injured and is masterminding operations from a hospital bed somewhere secret, but who knows? The invasion of Iraq has opened up a vast desert area which is great for terrorists to meet and plot their next moves.

The 9/11 business seems very worrying, if it is taken to its ultimate extreme. It would seem that certain factions in the govt allowed the whole thing to happen in order to produce a scenario in which no Islamic country would be safe from invasion. I cannot believe that western powers would stoop this low, but then I suppose that they did not expect the twin towers to collapse due to their faulty design. Maybe they reasoned that with some warning that the top floors would be empty by the time the planes hi so the death toll would be much lower, but it still leaves the passengers on the planes to be condemned to death. But, this would seem to be what happened to the poor souls on the PanAm flight that exploded over Lockerbie, so there is a precedent.

We live in very strange times. :cry:

[Justme]

I can't believe this. If it were to be true, it would make the Nixon years look like a walk in the park.

[bspider]

This is utter nonsense: If for no other reason than that it assumes a level of competence in ALL involved that NO government agency has shown.

Boris.

[BJ]

I just watched Farhenheit 9/11 tonight. Wow, i'm canadaian and i am so pissed at Bush. Makes everything you said on here fit so perfectly.

[RDJay]

As I say, I am not a big believer in government-sponsored conspiracies. But there is one exception: I am firmly convinced that the idea of getting Saddam Hussein was plotted years ago by that clique of right-wing intelllectuals who call themselves the Neoconservatives and who are the brains behind Bush administration foreign policy.

I have discussed this numerous times on our forum at:

http://members3.boardhost.com/EROtalk/

But, for a really good read on the subject, I would suggest you get Patrick Buchanan's newest book, Where the Right Went Wrong: How Neoconservatives Subverted the Reagan Revolution and Highjacked the Bush Presidency.

I am only on the second chapter, but Buchanan (who, by the way, is a world class historian) seems to be verifying every one of my suspicions and more.

Where I live (Texas, Bush country), the place is so rife with redneck conservatives that I can't seem to make anyone see what's happening--that there really does seem to be a conspiracy, of sorts, on the part of the Neocons (including Cheney and Rumsfeld, among others) to create a new American empire by conquering any countries which stand in their way.

Kerry, for his part, is sounding more and more Presidential every day. He has my support!

[Justme]

BJ-- That movie is so full of BS that even the democrats discount it as so much rubish. Now, if it had even an ounce of truth to it, don't you think they'd be using it to their best advantage?

RD Jay-- Pat Buchanan is so right wing he makes ME look liberal, and he gets on anyone he sees as getting in his way of going to the whitehouse, ESPECIALLY most republicans, but especially those who knocked him out when he tried. He's one of the biggest spin doctors out there.

[RDJay]

To Justme:

I think you're mistaken about Buchanan. I was never a fan of his, either--especially back when he was paid by CNN to be the right-wing half of Crossfire. But, I have since gained a new respect for his knowledge and understanding of world events and history.

He is a conservative (traditional, not neo), it's true. But he is fair and open-minded. The next time you are in your local bookstore, pick up his book and open it randomly to any page. I am betting you will land on something that will inspire you to keep reading. It is that rivoting.

[Crazyhorse]

Isn't it strange that all the evidence I have seen in favour of the US govt conspiring in the 9/11 tragedy has been presented in great logical detail, with supporting evidence from transcripts and eye witness accounts.

At the same time, all that the people who are supporting the establishment view can manage is to present the opposite view as too stupid to even contemplate.

Isnt this level of arrogance so marked as to load even more suspicion on those who persist with it.

Lets just ask this. Molten metal was found by those clearing the rubble 5 weeks after the collapse of the twin towers. MOLTEN METAL. This is supposed to have been caused by the high temperatures due to burning aviation fuel. What?? For 5 weeks??
The only way this can be acheived is by a thermite reaction involving potassium permanganate and iron oxide, and would need to be set off by a person as it is a chemical reaction.
And how much oxygen can keep a fire buring deep down for 5 weeks under a million tons of rubble, enough to continue to melt steel i.e. well above 1000 degrees.