O/T Message for Kate (or anyone else) about PJ Harvey

[Estelle]

I know it's O/T but we're always mentioning her here - at least some of us are!

PJ Harvey is doing an hour long concert on UK TV (BBC4) tonight at 9.00pm repeated on Saturday night at 01.10 am.

Enjoy it, everyone!

Estelle

[~*~ k a t e ~*~]

Fuck, I can't get BBC4 cos I refuse to pay them :(

[DavidEngland99]

Kate,

You don't need to pay anyone - except for the conversion box - BBC4 is free to view (LOL - I sound like an advertisement).

I have to admit, I caught about 5 mins of P.J.Harvey, (I only listened because I know of her from Estelle and Kate) and she did not do much for me - sorry :cry:

Maybe she appeals more to women - she was too strident for me (Kate, Estelle, I hope you forgive me!).

Now, if she wet herself on stage...............

David

[Wet Pacific Northwest]

50-foot Queenie gets my vote every time - just behind
Little Fish Big Fish Swimming in the Water (come back to me
and give me my daughter).

And if ya don't have a clue what I'm talking about, you
likely don't know about PJ Harvey :-)

Guys like her too,

Dave
WPNW

[Estelle]

I don't know if it was the first five minutes you saw David, but the set did take several songs to really get going. On the other hand I can see she would not be everyone's type. It's her stridency that I love!!! Forgive you .....? Hmmmmm .... let's see now ..... !!!

Yeah, WPNW, I was hoping she would do "Down By The Water" (Big fish little fish....) but it was not to be. It was almost the first song of hers that really grabbed my attention. Someone was playing me "To Bring Me Your Love" The title song made my hair stand on end, then the next few (first time round) I thought were OK. Then that "Big fish, little fish swimming in the water; Come back here, man, give me my daughter" chant made it stand on end again and made the back of my neck prickle.

I've been a fan ever since.

Estelle

[Grant]

I was unfortunate to see PJ Harvey in concert 11 years ago in a football stadium. I guess you're wondering, 1.Why did I put myself through such an unpleasant experience?, and 2.How on earth could she fill such a big arena? Well, she was supporting the biggest band in the world - U2. Unfortunately for her, the equipment was playing up and her performance was interrupted once or twice.

Of all the women I've watched perform in concert, I've yet to see any of them wet themselves (or notice if there's been a wetting). I can always hope I'll witness that first wetting on November 2nd in Glasgow when I see my favourite girl - Andrea Corr. There's no harm in dreaming...

Grant. :wink: :)

[~*~ k a t e ~*~]

You seem to be putting down Polly Harvey yet you are willing to admit that you are a Corrs fan? :wink: That's like saying Tori Amos sucks, then buying a ticket to a Girls Aloud concert.

And I thought Red Hot Chili Peppers were the "biggest band in the world", not U2? Not that popularity matters in the slightest, considering most people are sheep when it comes to music :wink: Long live the underdogs. Debate starts here...

[drpuddles]

Now Katy, he doesn't say he's a Coors fan he just says he's an Andrea Coor fan. And there's nothing wrong with that. The music may be terribly unappealing but there is the eye candy element to take into account. Personally I'd rather have hot pokers shoved into my ears than listen to The Coors but from a visual perspective.... well that's different (Jim excluded, of course).

On an on topic front... is there any reason why PJ is so popular on this board? Is there any indication that she is in fact one of us?

Additionally, although I loved her previous efforts, is her new album worth bothering with (I'm not provoking, I really want to know)?

[drpuddles]

Make that two r's and one o. Typo-tastic :)

[~*~ k a t e ~*~]

I'd rather have hot pokers shoved into my ears than listen to The Coors but from a visual perspective.... well that's different

What a sad world we live in where that's what makes people successful.


although I loved her previous efforts, is her new album worth bothering with

Yes!! It is amazing

[Crazyhorse]

I saw the concert on the telly after midnight while I was at work :twisted: because it was a weekend and I dont care.

The whole idea seemed good, and rather reminiscent of early 70s bands, but the whole thing was spoilt by the musicians playing completely out of tune. Maybe that was the whole point, but it passed me by.

So I turned my attention to outside, and saw two very pretty 20 year olds standing around by the bus station. They seemed to be waiting for a lift, and were looking as if they needed to pee, but it was only after they made a quick mobile phone call that they suddenly looked at each other and made a dash for the bus station toilets, which were closed. I think they thought that they just had time for a quick one without missing the person who was coming to collect them. They trudged back to their original position rather more slowly than they had gone the other way, and then treated the world to a slow pee-dance build up with each other that was quite erotic to the casual onlooker. This lasted for 10 minutes until a car appeared, and did not include any holding, but seemed appropriate with a distant PJ Harvey backing. :wink:

[Holly]

It's funny, Estelle. I've always had the vison in my mind that you look a bit like PJ Harvey or Sharleen from Texas. I don't expect Texas are your cup of tea but I've always imagined that she might look like you.

Am I right?

Holly x :wink:

[Grant]

You seem to be putting down Polly Harvey yet you are willing to admit that you are a Corrs fan? That's like saying Tori Amos sucks, then buying a ticket to a Girls Aloud concert.

Yes, Kate, that's exactly what I'm saying!




What a sad world we live in where that's what makes people successful.

You'll find that the Corrs became successful far more for their music than their looks. Looks alone isn't enough for an act to be successful for a long period of time. You'll also find that U2 have sold far more records than the Red Hot Chilli Peppers and play in bigger arenas.

Drpuddles, they are called "The Corrs", not "The Coors". Although that may just be your sense of humour. There's a good chance that I despise your taste in music, but that's what it is all about - we all have different musical tastes which is why there's such a diverse range of music out there to enjoy and appreciate.

Grant. :)

[~*~ k a t e ~*~]

The Corrs are the British Dixie Chicks. Melodies to please the masses.

I have no problem with that, but they shouldn't be confused with the people that dare to push the boundaries. For fuck's sake, they once presented 'The National Lottery'. Oops!

You go girl!! Suck that corporate dick!!

[DavidEngland99]

Estelle,

You are right, it was the first few minutes of the concert that I watched. I don't know if I missed something better later on - now if you had told me that she wet herself on stage on TV I would have felt really sick to miss it!

David

[Grant]

Kate, if you're talking about melodies to please the masses, that applies to the majority of successful artists over the years like the Beatles, Abba, Madonna, Elton John and many, many others. That's what commercial music is all about, reaching to as many people as possible.

The Dixie Chicks are country and the Corrs are pop, and a better comparison would be to say they each have three women in their band. I didn't read anyone comparing them with acts that push the boundaries, and I doubt very much they ever had any intention of doing so. I can't remember them ever presenting the National Lottery, though they have performed on it. Who cares anyway, it's nothing worth swearing over.

Grant. :roll: :)

[King Bruno D Questionable]

I may be showing my age here, but PJ Harvey's voice (and musical style too) remind me of 70's anti-diva Patti Smith, who came out of the New York underground scene which also gave us Talking Heads.

Patti is fondly remembered (by me at least) for the classic "Pissing in a River". She would ad-lib live onstage coming out with lines like "I don't fuck much with the past but I sure fuck plenty with the future" and "I measure the success of the night by the amount of piss and seed I can soothe". There was even a live bootleg album out called "Piss Factory", although I never managed to get a copy of that one. I never saw Patti perform live, being on the wrong continent and everything, but legend has it that she did actually wet on stage in the frenzy of her performance.

[Crazyhorse]

The trouble in the UK, as with most things (i.e. cars, houses etc.) music has a snob value. Many classical music enthusiasts sneer at modern stuff because they think classical is superior, and this is then reflected in a reverse snobbery of people playing music that is completely toneless just as a sideswipe at convention.

I learnt a long time ago that there is no point in trying to persuade people to like the music I like, or belittle those who buy what is currently in the charts, because music is music and all tastes are different, but it doesn't make any of them bad.

[bspider]

I was exceptionally lucky to have a wonderful music teacher: not that he taught me to play (or to sing :) ) but that he taught me to listen...
and form my own opinions of the music. It's hard not to be influenced by your peer group, but keeping an open mind pays dividends - you could argue that that's how come I got here, for example!

I now find that I can enjoy music in just about all genres: I like to think that I choose the best of it's kind, but that really is a matter for debate! I find ultramodern freeform Jazz impenetrable, almost all Rap impossible, but just about anything else - yes, even pop! - I can enjoy, if it's well done.

Eye-Candy helps. (:)) It's not essential though - just how good looking is the lead singer/guitarist of Nickelback? ;)

The other thing I've learned is tolerance for other people's opinion - even when they're wrong! :P

Boris.

[~*~ k a t e ~*~]

Hehe, I actually agree with most of what's being said here.

I think there's a very strong urge inside me to disregard anything that's "chart-worthy" - and while I'm surely entitled to become vocal about any music I personally dislike I don't think I can be classed as a musical snob. I have a great appreciation for a heck of a lot of different genres and I'm interested in the background stuff, too, such as how music is put together. I like Bach's keyboard music, I like The Pogues, I like Slayer, I like Johnny Cash, I like Snoop Dogg... you get where I'm going with this? :lol:

Polly Harvey gets dragged into quite a lot of the discussions here thanks to me and Estelle both being big fans (and board contributers) but I wouldn't go as far as to say that she is my 'favourite' singer/songwriter - I have a strong admiration for the depth of her work, the subject matters she touches/dives into and the way it reads like the poetry of an enlightened femanarchist, but I have other heroes and heroines, too. Andrea Corr, however, isn't one - and I apologise to Grant for my righteous rants, although you should expect much high-horse-mounting and spitting from the ~*~ k i t t y ~*~ when you poke her with anti-pj-harvey sticks...

And as for "Who cares anyway, it's nothing worth swearing over" - You care!, or you wouldn't have continued the discussion. You shouldn't feign indifference to add weight to your argument - Anyhow, I like to care, it's fun :)

On a separate note, one thing that's always annoyed me is when people listen to punk or metal (etc. etc.) and say things like "but it's just a load of noise, how can you like that?" Don't appreciate the skill it takes to play metal guitar? I say if metal is "just noise" then classical is "just quiet" - and I like both.

Thoughts on this, everyone??

[skymouse]

On a separate note, one thing that's always annoyed me is when people listen to punk or metal (etc. etc.) and say things like "but it's just a load of noise, how can you like that?" Don't appreciate the skill it takes to play metal guitar?

It takes skill to operate a pneumatic drill, but would I call it music? Ok - just kidding! :)

Actually, I can appreciate the skill needed for all kinds of genres, but for me, music is art, and skill alone doesn't make something art. I can (unwillingingly) listen to rap, for instance, and much of today's popular stuff, and I can understand the skills that go into producing that sound (being an ex-musician, I know about some of the technical principles involved in the process). But that doesn't stop it being shit, and it doesn't start it being art.

SM

[~*~ k a t e ~*~]

Grrr, Sky, I've a good mind to set Morrigan on you for those anti-metal comments ;)

Seriously, though - I agree. I wasn't saying people have an obligation to like heavy metal, just that they should appreciate the skill and not just class it as "noise".

[Mik]

I just rhought I'd get this FYI out:

A Perfect Circle are releasing a new album on November 2nd (some might recognize this date). The album is entitled eMOTIVe and consists of ten cover tracks and two originals. Among the covers is a rendition of the timeless "Imagine" by The Beatles. This particular track has been released on the APC website for anyone to hear:

http://www.aperfectcircle.com/audio.html

Personally I'm really enjoying what they've done. Albeit cheezy to release what is basicly a covers album, this is more an expression of political frustration, as the album art alludes to:

http://www.aperfectcircle.com/emotive_art/eMOTIVe_cover.jpg

Furthermore, the video to imagine, including an introduction by lyricist and vocalist Maynard James Keenan, can be found on the same website:

http://www.aperfectcircle.com/video.html

Any lover of "alternative" music should enjoy this.

Have fun now, y'hear?

Mik.

[Mik]

And now...to address the topic.

Yes, I do enjoy some doses of metal, and being a guitar player myself I am continually amazed at what those lads can do on a fretboard. But as with any statement I make, there comes a plethora of 'but's:
The fact that a lot of people classify metal as noise is not entirely asinine. I've heard so many brilliant, riffs, hooks, arpeggios and fills from these metal boys, but a lot of the time, the notes are choked and drowned in excessive distortion. It becomes a bass/treble jumble of cracks and although it looks impressive when you watch fingers zipping up and down a fretboard at greater speeds than a chronic masturbator could ever hope to achieve, the musical quality is lost to what some like to call 'rawness'. In my opinion, all that technical skill that is applied is basicly wasted. Music is aural emotion, not a visual masturbation platform to shock and awe.

Some artists know how to make distortion work for the music and not vice-versa. Look at Adam Jones from TOOL. Very non-technical low-distortion soundmaking, but his notes and phrases entwine with the rhythm, bass and vocals to complete a whole, and it spews emotion like a motherfucker. Same with Tom Morello and Kim Thayil (who apparently disappeared to pursue the academics of philosophy). Simple riffs that drive the track.

Then there's the wizards of guitar...they need no apologetic commentary. They are simply musical geniuses of our age. Vai is my personal favorite, as I much enjoy the influences he draws from his days with Zappa. Then there's the Satch, Johnson, Petrucci (Dream Theater are genius) and the like. Got no criticism on those boys.

But since we're on the topic of music, I need to do a bitching-rant, so here's my biggest thorn with contemporary music culture:

Dear 'artists'...

This concerns the image thing. Just make music goddamnit. You're just people, not deities or fictional characters. Fuck market tendencies, you can eat rock-encrusting algae between record company paychecks for all I care, this freaking genreficating, glad-wrapped, label-pushing, plastic totem worshiping bullshit has got to end...people are dumb enough already. Goths, punks, poppers, rapstas and neo-hippies...all sides of the BGM-Sony, Pepsi, MTV dice of youth culture marketing devilry. Manufactured demographics to be catered to by the silky glove of vanity product peddling. Make music not millions, baby. Fuck, even failed and forgotten musicians still drive around in million dollar cars. People still do great on 50.000 a year.

A lot of people will not agree though....

[/rant]

OK, when your fingers are outwinded, stop typing....

Mik.

[~*~ k a t e ~*~]

Wow, thanks, Mik - that was quite a "rant".

I'm an eternal cynic and I'm inclined to agree with a lot of that. So much of the music that gets produced - and the manufactured genres - are influenced heavily by the "industry". You've got to expect that, though, because gigantic corporations are always going to go with the "make money" option rather than the "make art" one. When an artist comes along who just happens to have a tick next to both of those options... woo-hoo!!

The "wizards of guitar" as you've called them, like Vai or Satriani, don't impress me much at all. The stuff they create seems to be so complex that it's like they are sacrificing emotion for technical excellence. Like, "Hmmm, shall I play the piece with meaning, or shall I play it with muted artificial-harmonics and tapping with both hands on the neck at 600 beats per minute? Yea! The second one!!"

Also, Skymouse talked about understanding the technical principles behind music and, referring to Rap in particular, said "that doesn't stop it being shit, and it doesn't start it being art".

I can't agree with that. I'm not really a fan of much Rap either, but it was the "art" comment that I didn't understand. Art is so diverse - and there is absolutely no litmus-test out there to define it. You seemed to be saying that because you don't like something then it isn't art??

I think that the works Jackson Pollack created by just splashing buckets of paint randomly onto large canvasses is rubbish - principally because anyone could have done it and got an equally random and messy result - but if I was to suggest that those works weren't "art" I'm sure a lot of art critics would strongly disagree...

The lyrics and beats people in the Rap industry, like 'Ludacris' and 'Sisqo', come up with definately sound like shit to me, too, but I'd never be so bold as to suggest that it can't be classed as art. It's their art, for sure. *shrugs*

Hehe, we all know that art can be crap! Look at the sort of fetchment that keeps winning the Turner Prize!

[Mik]

Rap in its original form was an art, but nowadays rap and hip-hop (the bastard child of rap) basicly seem to be mass-produced gimmicks for sale. No meaning or musical prowess, just a stream of bad grammar and asinine word connotation on the backbone of a computer-generated repetitive beat. Oh yeah, and throw in some sticky stolen riffs sampled from classic rock songs that Pepsi-blasted teeny-boppers are oblivious to. PRESTO...she goes number one for three days, stays on the chart for maybe a couple of months and is never played again.

All credit goes to musicians that produce their own music. That means you, John Butler Trio. Also SOMA are incredible.

Oh, and as for the guitar wizards...they play straight off sheet music. They ain't foolin'. Also, they experiment with weird times, chord progressions and scales, which do not necessarily need to be harmonic to work in a musical sense. Frank Zappa, for example, tried to work atonal music a la Stravinsky into rock/jazz/whatever-he-was-doing. Few appreciate it cuz they're used to tonality, a key to fall back on. Most people just like Zappa cuz he was funny. The artistic freedom one can explore when one isn't bound to a key is unlimited, i.e. the ultimate originality. It's like an abstract painting, only with notes. Most people will buy the picture of the horsie in the sunny meadow though.

What is art? Stick a toilet bowl in a museum exhibit and it is art. I am concerned with craft more than 'art'. A well crafted song, I will enjoy. But I do writhe whenever I hear a DCG (or the likes) and a cheap unphrased melody.

[Estelle]

SHIT!!!!!

I've just spent half an hour replying to this thread and my words of wisdom got lost somewhere in cyberspace.

F-----------------------!!!!!!!!!

Estelle

[~*~ k a t e ~*~]

OMG! No way, hun! That happened to me one time when me and Ape were *ahem* "discussing" things...

One problem with this forum is if you press "Submit" and it fails to register, when you press "back" you get a blank field again. I leared a while back to highlight it all and select "copy" before you post anything of length here.

:(

[bspider]

1st, before I forget, a big 'thank you' to Mik fir the APC link...really good band. If truth be told I preferred the first album to the second, but both are wonderful.

Now...

Craft does not equal art, although it's usually a pre-requisite for it. But what art always needs is imagination. A third angle projection of a cardboard box may be wonderfully well drawn, but it's unlikely to be art - while matchstick men can be, in the right context. :)

Going back to music: Can manufactured Pop, Rap etc. be called art? Yes, in the right context - but the artist is the one who conceived of the package. Sort of "Simon Cowell" not "Gareth Gates" if you see what I mean.

My personal preferences tend towards those who can write and play, but that's my own taste, not a definition.

Boris.

[bspider]

Hey, Kate - fancy locking the thread in the main area - that's cheating!

:D:D

[~*~ k a t e ~*~]

more power = less cower

LOL!!!!!!

[SMILIN'_JONES]

I note that Mik describes Stravinsky's work as atonal. Really? Works such as 'The Firebird Suite' or 'The Rite of Spring' don't seem to be particularly atonal. Stravinsky was a neo-classicist and something of an opponent of Schoenberg (whose work for the most part was atonal, if we ignore the early Romantic/expressionist work). What works by Stravinsky are atonal?
Sorry to be picky.

On a lighter note, what do people think is the most appropriate/interesting way of punishing Tory boys "Busted" for continuing to have a music career? :twisted:

[SMILIN'_JONES]

Ah yes I forgot... P.J.Harvey, wasn't her first LP called "Dry". Kind of inappropriate for this board. :D

[Mik]

You're correct to say that Stravinsky did not write strictly atonal pieces as Schoenberg did. However, Rite of Spring for example incorporates atonal sections (particularily in accompanyment) while the main themes retain clear pitch relationships (makes the piece easier to listen to). Anyway, this and Stravinsky's use of rhythmic ambiguity were of particular interest to Zappa.

[Crazyhorse]

Switches pedantic mode on here.

Mik wrote
rendition of the timeless "Imagine" by The Beatles.

I think you will find that Imagine was by John Lennon.
I dont think the other 3 had much to do with it, especially not McCartney as one of the songs 'How do you sleep' was a barely disguised slagging off of him and his musical performance so far.



Music is aural emotion, not a visual masturbation platform to shock and awe.


No, no, no, no, no. You are missing the point.
Most of the guitar solos I assume you are referring to are not the product of wonderful romantic love affairs, they have their roots in the blues.

And the blues is about men being frustrated by women, cheated on, two-timed and discarded by women who can attract anyone they fancy by flashing a bit of thigh, or cleavage. (Oh yes. I'm really digging a hole here). So given that as a basis, and you are all alone in the world what else is there to do but play guitar and masturbate?

That way you communicate to all the other people suffering from failed relationships, in the most direct way possible. If you can make your guitar masturbation as musically and technically brilliant as possible then it will sound great on the cd, but when fans go to a gig they dont want to see you standing motionless at the back of the stage playing fancy stuff ( Steve Hackett was the exception that proved the rule), they want you to be up front all action and sweaty, working yourself up into a frenzy and moving those hands up and down the fretboard as fast as your muscles will allow. Why do you think so many millions went to Queen concerts? Just so the 100 rows of women at the front could fantasise about being in love with Freddie, even though he was gay? Or maybe Brian Mays' guitaring had something to do with it?

If you want to hear high speed electric guitar done proper - like, try Jan Akkerman, Francis Dunnery or Steve Howe, but have 15 cans of lager first, make sure you are on your own, and turn the volume up LOUD.