Literary Style - Am I that Out of Touch?

[Frodo]

OK, you all know by now that I'm a Certified Old Fart. I adhere to the Old Ways, though I have accepted electricity and the horseless carriage. And I admire well-written prose.

Punctuation serves a purpose. When one is reading, one knows where to pause and where to stop. Stream-of-consciousness may be a recognized literary style, but it's damned hard to read and interpret. If you want your writing to be fully appreciated, you must respect the reader's needs.

Perhaps e. e. cummings made his mark by eliminating upper-case letters, but they also serve a purpose. I am important enough to capitalize "I", as are names, and sentences require a beginning point. Capital letters make reading easier.

Shorthand works well for a stenographer, but readers bog down with "b4" instead of "before", and "u" rather than "you" interrupts the flow. It's not that much harder to type the other letters.

English is an incredibly rich language, and it's a shame that some choose to reduce it to a primitive, basic level. Shakespeare and Dickens are still appreciated today, while others have fallen by the wayside. At least I hope they are still appreciated.

When I read a post that ignores the standard conventions, I suspect that the writer is young, perhaps underage to be here. It has less impact and value to me, and I am less likely to respond.

I have taught the learning-disabled, and I understand their plight. I can make allowances for them, but are there THAT many of them posting on the Net? We all make typos, but there has to be a limit.

Am I just an Old Fart, out of tune with today, or do I make a valid point? Am I THAT uncool?

[Frodo]

Addendum: Please understand that I am not throwing stones at those who lack skills in English for whatever reason. If English is not your primary language, or if your school system let you down, please continue to share your thoughts even if your written expression is a bit rocky. My point is that purposely defying the accepted conventions of written language isn't in the best interests of the reader, and if you can do better, please do. If you come across as illiterate or immature, your content will suffer even if you have something important to say. Impressions count, even if they shouldn't.

[SNIFFER17]

To plagerize the master of lyric who calls himself MEATLOAF........

"You took the words right out of my mouth" !!!!

[Frodo]

"You took the words right out of my mouth" !!!!"

That's a very unsanitary practice, and my mother taught me never to take anything without permission. I suppose if I'm guilty of those two transgessions, I'm condemned to sit in the corner. I hope it's not too long, because I have to wee...

[SWEETPEE]

Nothing turns me off more than a story or post that starts out and then
after a few lines the person cant use the right "I" insead of i, and as you say, "u" instead of you and so on.

I myself part of the ole fart club probably older than Frodo, now retired some time ago used to have to write long Laborious weekend reports to send into my home office (as a manger)about whats going on in the market place and my store. I didnt dare send in trash like what Ive read on many posts, not just on the wet sets or other web sites.
Many times I had to rewrite and change words, look them up and more to get my ideas across.
Theres no excuse for some of the writing Ive seen as Frodo says. I was in high school, one of only 3 boys in typing and commerical course. I could not keep up with the girls as the teacher was a male hater and didnt want us there in the first place. We all got "F's" for the two years of typing and other commerical works I had done.
But now, I can type 50+ words a minute error free and can go and correct a lot of spelling and misakes. It all came in handy for me when I had to write those reports 52 times a year times 25+ years.

So Ok disagree, thats ok but I dont have to read those sloppy written posts nor reply to them. Heavens knows, no one replies to mine as it is.

I personally think the party that writes some of those stories or posts on various boards do the kiddie works on purpose to disguise who it is they are and more.


Ok do now Im going to go and do some wiriting, hopefully readable.

Donnie...AKA sweetpee

[Adrian]

I agree entirely with the sentiments expressed by Frodo. Even on a board such as this where the subject matter is unconventional - at least as a topic of conversation to say the least - the value of good English and well written prose cannot be underestimated. This is true whether a post is strictly a story or simply a contribution to an ongoing debate. I fully accept that there are people in the world whose first language isn't English or have learning difficulties - or have simply been deprived of the advantages of a reasonably good education. It hardly needs to be said that I try hard to make allowances for them. My own English isn't perfect and if anyone asked me to name the 'parts of speech' I should probably fail abysmally. Having said that, I find well written posts, which use correct English or some approximation to it, a joy to read. Badly written posts which are characterised by poor spelling and punctuation are much harder for me to read - and much less pleasurable. Accordingly I feel much less inclined to respond to such posts than if they had been well written. The use of good English grammar (or at least some attempt to use it) does involve effort and a degree of application. However, the effort is usually worthwhile and may well mean the difference between people taking notice of what's been written and them ignoring it.

:o

[pickles]

Hear, hear. I agree with you all, and it's usually fairly easy to spot whether someone is using English as a second language or just being plain lazy...

Sorry if I sound like I'm chiming in and being elitist, because it's not my intention to intimidate anyone who is seriously making an effort to use proper English grammar. And heaven knows I make mistakes sometimes as well...

It just really makes such a difference to the reader when something is well composed and somewhat proof read before it's posted. In my opinion (and obviously some others').

Or are we being nitpicking assholes?

[~*~ k a t e ~*~]

I understand Frodo's point of view and I have an enormous amount of respect for him and his contributions to this forum but this is the kind of debate that will never reach a conclusion to please everyone. Competent grammar, syntax, spelling, etc. are great to read but I don't think essential in here. Imagination is far more important.

We had a similar discussion to this one a few months ago I had far more controversial things to say back then but, although I still stick-by all that, I think drawing negative attention to abbreviation and incompetent writing is the wrong approach.

If this forum was for discussing fringe poetry or music then you wouldn't be out of line to expect users to present their posts better but wetting is for anyone and everyone.

Incidentally, every single post so far in this thread (including Frodo's topic-starter) has included some sort of error*. That prompts me to wonder at just which point do the errors become acceptable? Where is the line you have to be behind to qualify to be annoyed at bad grammar without becoming a hypocrite? lol!


* = sweetpee's "I didnt dare send in trash like what I've read" is astounding.

[DavidEngland99]

I agree very much with Frodo, but I would add two more points.

First, people for whom English is a second language usually write beautifully - they have really learned all the rules of English grammar that aren't taught in school much and US/UK kids just pick up vaguely.

Second, I think it is important to remember ultimately why grammar is important. If you went to another country armed with an English-X dictionary, you could easily look up the word for coffee, say it in a restaurant, and probably get what you wanted. Maybe the X equivalent of "Please coffee, milk" would work too, but if you wanted to say something slightly more complicated, such as, "Can you tell me if that coffee contains a lot of caffeine, if so I think I will order instant instead.", you would not have a chance.

By not teaching language properly we are making it hard for kids to have complicated thoughts in any subject!!!

Kate: I am sure my post contains some errors too - but I guess it is the density of errors that is important! However, I agree with you that pointing out the errors in people's posts does seem unfair - indeed rude, and I don't like to see that - particularly with new posters.

David

[Tapper]

I think Frodo was not out of line to encourage people to use correct spelling, punctuation, capitalization, and to limit the use of abreviations. By taking the time to compose a well-written post, it is more likely to be enjoyed and appreciated by those who read it. However, some might not have as much time to post here, but still want to send a message, so I see no need to single out anyone for their mistakes, but maybe question the writer about something he wrote if the meaning isn't clear.

Everyone here is free to write the way they want to; it's just a matter of how much you want others to enjoy reading your posts. And taking the time to write well is the key.

Tapper

[Crazyhorse]

Er, hello?

This is a knicker wetting message board, not the Queens English preservation sociey. I know poor spelling and grammar does irritate those of us who attended school many decades ago, but that is all that happens - an irritation. Occasionally little white spots across my eyes irritate me while I am reading, but I dont gouge my eyes out or rush to the doctors whingeing about my plight, I put up with it because it is a fact of life.

The language is changing, for the worse maybe, but you are not going to stop it and if you think that this is a new phenomenon, try reading The Canterbury Tales by Chaucer (and I mean the original version) and see how irritating it would be if the language police had insisted that we all still rote like wot he done.

[bspider]

I support Frodo's post, while acknowledging Crazyhorse's point that the board's focus is not on correct English grammar and spelling. I would point out to Crazyhorse, however, that if the post is well written as well as on-topic, it makes it a lot easier for everyone to read. The purpose is to communicate, and some posts are a lot easier to read than others.

Kate: Point very well taken! I'm sure that this post, too, contains one or more errors; I try not to let typos and such get through, and I used to think my spelling was quite good - but then I only scored 6/10 in a recent spelling test on the BBC website, which put me firmly back in my place! :shock:

So, with some humility, yours,
Boris.

(Crikey! Edited to remove one typo - please point out any others... :) )

[bloom061604]

If this forum was for discussing fringe poetry or music...
Kate, that sentence is a subjunctive supposition, contrary to the fact. The correct form would be: "If this forum were for discussing...

Nyah-nyah-nya-yah-yah! :)

[~*~ k a t e ~*~]

The correct form would be: "If this forum were for discussing...

You forgot the closing quotation mark.

[bspider]

Have we out-pedanted each other enough yet? :D

[aquarian]

Being somewhat of ( wow, a partitive genitive) a newbie to this board, I was not familiar with the accidental and syntactical etiquette utilised, and so, am culpable for this intolerable ( to our dignified elders) plague that is abominable English.

With my most recent post having been written ( an ablative absolute.....even better) in shorthand/ absurdly poor English, I, firstly, apologise, and secondly, would like, as a member of the younger clique, like also to offer my support for Frodo and his geriatric friends' plight ( no offence). Finally, I pledge to write with greater linguistic acumen on future occasions.

In my defence, being a mere 18 yr. old student, with alcohol being a vital part of my life, I have limited time with which to impart unto you my less than vital musings. Thus, being technophobic, with the computer skills of your average dislexic gorilla, i find typing a real chore, and so in order to provide a post of at least mediocre intellectual standing, such as this, many minutes are taken.

Sorry if this sounds arrogant or haughty, but im only writing to prove that my hgeneration are not mindless text lingo using automata.

ps....who wants to join my campaign to bring back the fountain pen?????

[bspider]

:lol: Good answer, aquarian. I started grinning at the beginning and was smiling broadly by the end!

Just keep posting, everyone. I for one would rather a few harder-to-read posts than no posts at all. :)

Boris.

[Holly]

i went 2 a good cafolic grrls skool in ssex and no1 can tell me that i dont no how to spel or right. ill give u a 4 instance the other day i went clubbing with mi m8 and a boi i new from skool he was a sk8er boi there was a reelly long cue 4 the grrls loo and i nearli done a we in my nickers in fat i had 2 go so badly that i had 2 go in hem on the road and all mi m8s were laffing and takin the piss but i had 2 go so badly so i just wet em i was soooooooo embarassed!!! lol

bi the way b4 u say anything i cum here to xpress miself not 2b told how 2 rite!!

Holly x :wink: :wink: :lol: :roll:

(Edited by Holly for spelling 9.10pm)

[Estelle]

Well, perhaps I'm a young fart but I find myself agreeing with Frodo most of the way. But then, (first error - beginning a sentence with a conjunction!!!) I was lucky to have parents who taught me better English than I was taught at school and who taught me to love language in general, not just English.

I do prefer English that is correctly written, without being so attached to it that I can't enjoy anything that includes mistakes. I make them myself, I'm sure. I don't like textese but then that's my problem. There does come a point, though, where lack of punctuation just makes even an inventive story difficult to read. As does lack of paragraphs (second error - sentence without a verb!!). Thirty or forty lines of text with no paragraph breaks is just unreadable for me. Perhaps that's not so for others.

What I do find unforgivable is that even senior teachers at schools and tutors at universities seem unable to write even half way correct English. How the hell are students and pupils supposed to learn if their teachers give them coursework full of elementary mistakes like using apostrophe's to create plural's and missing them out of the teachers own possessive's?

And I just HATE verbed nouns!!

Hi Holly, did you say you cum here????? Hmmmmm!

Estelle

[Holly]

Oh my god Estelle! Did I say 'cum'?!!! I'm soooooooooo embarrassed. :oops: :lol:

Actually you've no idea how hard that was to write and since predictive texting has been around for so long now; I can't see the point. I often receive 'textese,' perhaps not as extreme as that but certainly in what can only be described as another language and I stare at my phone and go "what"?

By the way Skymouse perhaps this thread should really be sent off to the Off topic zone!

i did mi best 2 bring it bac 2 weein reelly! :wink:

Holly x 8)

[DavidEngland99]

Hi Holly,

You brought back memories of posts by Debra!

David

[Crazyhorse]

from holly


bi the way b4 u say anything i cum here to xpress miself not 2b told how 2 rite!!


Yeah but....no but....yeh but.....no but....I woz down Hanham wiv kirsty an she dun nothin see but phil said she pissed on im, but no cos baz saw us an we jus split our wkd cos clair said he dun it in the bottle an we went on the 49, on top an the wee went on the floor as we went round the bend and we yelld 'ur ded' as we went passed knowle cemetry but e never got is willy out...so there.

[Adrian]

Estelle wrote:


What I do find unforgivable is that even senior teachers at schools and tutors at universities seem unable to write even half way correct English. How the hell are students and pupils supposed to learn if their teachers give them coursework full of elementary mistakes like using apostrophe's to create plural's and missing them out of the teachers own possessive's?

A year or so ago I was asked by the wife of a local teacher to type up a letter of application on behalf of her husband who was applying for a senior post in a minor public (private to non Brits) school. In the event I not only ended up typing up what he'd written but also having to make a considerable number of changes in order for the text to make some kind of grammatical sense. When his wife came to collect the letter which had been duly typed, I explained to her the nature of the changes I'd made and the reasons for making them with as much restraint and good humour as I could muster.

I'm pleased to say that she accepted my editorial decisions on behalf of her her husband and he ended up getting the much sought after job. Whether my intervention had any bearing on that is of course open to question and I will never know for certain whether it did or not. However had I been the headmaster of the school in question and I'd received that letter of application in its original, unamended form, I would have consigned it straight to the waste paper basket without any further ceremony!

:o

[Val]

I hate the sheer damned arrogance of text shorthand in a message. There's nothing wrong with ignorance, being unable to spell or with typos, or for that matter weird grammar or a host of other things that aren't 100% perfect -so somebody confuses 'decimate' with 'devastate' and so on. What is wrong is the quite deliberate infliction of a sub-cult written dialect, expecting everybody else to make the effort to puzzle it out. Standard spelling does have the advantage of speakers who might not understand a word of each other's dialect at least being able to read. And I work with somebody of whom I am lucky to understand one word in five and even then they make no sense together. We hold whole conversations where I 'Mmm' and 'Oh yeah' and she seems happy enough though I haven't a clue what she's on about.
I often use phonetic abbreviations in phone text because it is limitted and I'm in a hurry. On the side, I do find it amusing that when S-F imagined videophones years ago, the last thing anybody thought of is that people would be frantically typing on a keyboard where some keys need to be pressed anything up to 4 or 5 times for some effects. One day, they'll get the idea of talking to each other :!:

[Leaker]

Frodo,

I agree with your criticism of the writing to this board a thousand times over. There is no excuse for by-passing the rules of the english language unless one has not been fully instructed in the language.

I too refuse to read the submissions that are short-cutted, colored and filled with emoticons. I may have a fetish but that doesn't mean I will hurl myself over barbwire to enjoy my fetish.

Just put me into the classification of old farts to this board and know that I am on your side.

Leaker

[Frodo]

My initial intention was to comment about those posters who purposely employ a writing style or method that is very difficult to decipher. No one should realistically expect every post to be perfect, beautiful and memorable on a bulletin board, but readability is damned helpful. And Val, I have to tell you that your red-on-green post above made me crosseyed. Please save color for artwork. Excessive emoticons or banner-sized decorations also detract. On the other hand, modest little statements at the bottom may contribute to our understanding of the writer. I smile when I try to envision inconvenienced electrons.

We post here to communicate, but if you throw in roadblocks your message is lost. We truly want to read and appreciate what you have to say. Please don't make that so difficult!

[Val]

The red did kind of defeat my purpose. It was supposed to cover only the first red word but somehow did not turn back to indigo for the rest. Sorry about that

[Val]

[WT]

Val,

What colour it's on depends on what theme you have picked for the site to display in. Classic Skymouse (whatever it's called) is light and dark grey: other options give different backgrounds. White displays on pretty much all whereas other colours don't work on some. Your indigo is virtually illegible on the dark grey background in classic, which I use.

If you want to be read, stick the white!

[bspider]

...and then you won't feel blue!


...


(I'll get my coat... :lol: )

[Ape]

If someone has a story about wet pants and they want to write in whatever vernacular they feel comfortable expressing themselves in, I suggest the farts, old and young, go find a library to read in. This is the internet, this is not English class. Our language is constantly evolving and frankly, if the Oxford English Dictionary feels txt spk is acceptable, and they have included modern words in recent editions, then who the fxck are you to disagree. Shakespeare played with language - indeed, Estelle (I think it was), Shakespeare VERBED NOUNS - it was one of the ways he was so impressive, his inventive use of language!

This is a rehash of a well-known debate, but if one thing pisses me off, it's ignoramuses who get on their high horse about language and don't seem to have the first clue about where the language they so adore actually came from, and how it developed!

Txt spk is more in tune with Shakespeare than the stuck-in-the-muds on this thread are.

I know I have been rude, and I genuinely don't mind if people feel they want language to remain static, but it's the lack of knowledge on which they base their arguments that (as Monty Python so eloquently puts it) MAKES ME MAAAAAAAAAAADDDDDDD!

[DavidEngland99]

If you can't read text of a particular colour, one answer is to mouse-select all the text - then you can read it!

David

[bspider]

If someone has a story about wet pants and they want to write in whatever vernacular they feel comfortable expressing themselves in, I suggest the farts, old and young, go find a library to read in. This is the internet, this is not English class. Our language is constantly evolving and frankly, if the Oxford English Dictionary feels txt spk is acceptable, and they have included modern words in recent editions, then who the fxck are you to disagree. Shakespeare played with language - indeed, Estelle (I think it was), Shakespeare VERBED NOUNS - it was one of the ways he was so impressive, his inventive use of language!

This is a rehash of a well-known debate, but if one thing pisses me off, it's ignoramuses who get on their high horse about language and don't seem to have the first clue about where the language they so adore actually came from, and how it developed!

Txt spk is more in tune with Shakespeare than the stuck-in-the-muds on this thread are.

I know I have been rude, and I genuinely don't mind if people feel they want language to remain static, but it's the lack of knowledge on which they base their arguments that (as Monty Python so eloquently puts it) MAKES ME MAAAAAAAAAAADDDDDDD!
Fine, if you like it, that's your priviledge. It's mine to say that I find it difficult to read, and therefore it fails in it's purpose.

Unless, of course, the purpose is simply to wind me up...
Boris.

[Ape]

Fine, if you like it, that's your priviledge. It's mine to say that I find it difficult to read, and therefore it fails in it's purpose.

Unless, of course, the purpose is simply to wind me up...
Boris.

It may well be!

I would imagine that the purpose is twofold - one is self-expression - which is why people who write in txt spk do so, because it is how they express themselves (irrelevant of who is listening) and the other purpose is to get heard by others. Chances are the others they want to listen would be those people who enjoy the same stuff (wetting or desperation or both etc.) and with whom they may have a connection. In other words, those people who are fusty about written contributions and demand a certain style and a particular level of literacy are probably NOT the same people as these txt spk contributors are aiming at.

The fact that it does wind some people up is either a bonus or a disadvantage depending on your POV.

[SWEETPEE]

Holy Cow!!!

I write off the top of my head as the facts or ideas come to mind.
Here at home we have a style of writing and local words used here in Pennsylvania, especially Pittsburgh Pa.
"Youns, Soutside, Stillers, strecar, and this is only a few.

I dont use em but again just to show that there are different methods and understanding of what we try to say here.

I dont expect a English or language teacher to get on here and start to
Berate anyone who uses their home grown way of writing or talking.

Thats a lot of crap from a few that suppose to know more than the other person.
Forget it.

[Crazyhorse]

Although I dont care too much about how things are written, having been brought up to spell properly by endless spelling tests and, no doubt, some grammar ones that I may have forgotten, I tend to almost skim through parts of each paragraph, slowing down to read what I consider to be the important bits. Any spelling mistakes will almost 'jump' off the page at me, so that I have to stop and re-read the section to make sure I have understood it in the manner it was written. This is far more difficult, and a far slower process if it is written in txt 4mat. But that is just me, so I dont expect any special dispensation.

[Indigo]

My brother is a signed-up member of the school that preaches that "language is about communicating ideas from one person to another, and if the idea is successfully communicated that is all that matters".

I, on the other hand, have spent my entire career working among lawyers, and I therefore have a slightly different perspective on the matter. (You're allowed to laugh at that one, folks. It's a sort of joke. Or at least, the colsest thing to a joke that you're likely to get from a lawyer ... )

Language is indeed about communicating ideas.

But an idea is only successfully communicated if the recipient receives the same idea that the sender sends.

In a one-to-one conversation, it may be that the two interlocutors know one another sufficiently well that they can communicate successfully outside the bounds of conventional grammar, or even vocabulary.

On the internet, however, where messages are broadcast to anyone and indeed everyone, one cannot safely assume that one's readers will necessarily follow all of one's departures from convention. Convention therefore assumes a rather greater importance.

Depart from it if you must - but in departing from it you must also accept that you thereby increase the risk that you will fail to communicate effectively. And if in such instances a reader fails to understand you, that is YOUR failure, not theirs.

So, in Frodo's terms, I think that probably makes me a prolix old fart.

[Val]

Spelling shorthands and spoken codes are fine between people who know each other well. Once spelling becomes too bizarre or too close tospeech, especially in an international forum, it becomes different dialect and nobody knows whatthey are saying. My brother was taught to read according to later 'hear and coy' systems. What he heard came from Scotland or North England. What he spoke was closer to South African. So spellings like hoos and moos. As a reult, he was considered dyslexic and to this day cannot spell.

[Vanja__]

As a person whose first language is NOT English I would like to chime in here, and add my opinion to this. I agree wholeheartedly with Frodo and the others, and find lazily written posts not only hard to read, but they annoy me to no end. Do they have any idea how unintelligent they come off??

What bothers me more, however, is the complete lack of paragraphs in some posts. How hard is it to hit "Enter" to start a new paragraph and let us readers catch our breaths?? And don't get me started on the posters who use all capital letters. I don't like to be yelled at, thank you very much...

Being in my early twenties I don't consider myself an old fart , :D just someone who appreciates posters who make an effort...

Vanja[/i]

And I know there are bound to be a fair few mistakes in my own post, but at least it is intelligible, right??

[Frodo]

Vanja_, my dear, you wrote beautifully.

Whenever I read a no-capitals, no-punctuation, no-paragraph post, my initial reaction is "underage". If I respond to it, I'm a pedophile. If it looks like a ten-year-old's writing, it just might be. I really don't want to be locked up.

[~*~ k a t e ~*~]

Frodo, that's a bit overly dramatic!

Someone trying to get locked up for online paedophilia would have to try a lot harder than just replying to a post that was possibly made by a minor...

[Frodo]

Kate, of course it was an overstatement, but I thought that was obvious. Apparently I was wrong, as I have been many times before.

There IS a police officer in Keene, NH whose job it is to entrap pedophiles on the Net, but the only ones who get locked up are those that arrange for a meeting. I may be a bit senile, but I'm not that stupid.

My point remains: Those who write like a child may have their messages dismissed as those of a child despite their actual age. And this is a forum for adults.

[Val]

When this started running, in view of spelling and style etc being so unimportant, I couldn't resist the following.

Oft saith the Commons that in Time of yore were y-spelled Words many Way, Yea is hit e'en most remarked yt ye Wm Shakspeer did in three Wyse spelle ye yea e'en his Name. Swich as swa sayen han verily forgot yt in those Dayn was ne neuer y-fixit what Spellings maye men spelle ond yt alswa were ye Naciouns of Scotts ond of Englisshe bothe separate and apart swich yt eke e'en swa ye writing of hir seueral Tonges. Thus is hit yt whanne His Most Righteous King IAMES Vj writeth vnto His Parlament of Edinburgh writeth he yea Scotts, butte, of His being eke His Most Gracious Maiesty King IAMES I of Engelond, whanne vnto His of ye West Minster writeth ond spelleth verily ye Englisshe Tonge, ye which differeth most mightily from - or ye quhilke differs micklemost fra - yt other. Ond, few folk hauing in great storre ye Science of Lettering did matter lyttyl yt they oft did write one vnto ye other in ond of their seueral Regiouns according as herde they ye Sounds thereof ond oft eke was y-wrote Y for I, for in ye Hond of yt Day was ye single stroke hard enow to discerne mid others of ilk Forme. As maye oft ye see, mine Fancie prefereth ye Spellings 'spelt' ond 'dreamt' ond 'leant' like vnto 'meant' to 'spelled' ond 'dreamed' ond 'leaned' for trew they be as verily y-spoke, ye least a-wise whanne 'tis I as do hem speke!

y in ye, yt etc is Þ, usually written with the tail extending the left stroke to the right, second letter normally superscript, replaced by Th because printing came from Germany, which lacked the sound and letter. As late as the late 19th century, I have an English-Classical Greek dictionary which lists I with J and U with V.

Two of my favourite poems: By John Donne (1580s-1630s), Dean of St. Paul's and right randy bugger starts (spelling his).

Goe! Catche a fallynge starre, get with Childe a Mandrake Roote
Tell me wheer all past yeeris are, and who cleft ye Dyvil's Foote....

Works in any non-standard accent.

15th century Victor Meldrew though both the language and traditional style seem older:

Swarte-smeked smethes, smatered with smoke,
Drive me to deth with den of her dintes:
Swich nois on nightes ne herd men never,
What knavene cry and clatering of knockes!
The cammede kongons cryen after 'Col! Col!'
And blowen here bellewes that all here brain brestes.
'Huf, puf' seith that on, 'Haf, paf' that other.
They spitten and sprawlen and spellen many spelles,
They gnawen and gnacchen, they grones togidere,
And holden hem hote with here hard hamers.
Of a bole hide ben here barm-felles,
Here shankes ben shakeled for the fere-flunderes.
Hevy hameres they han that hard ben handled,
Stark strokes they striken on a steled stocke.
'Lus, bus, las, das', rowten by row.
Swich dolful a dreme the Devil it todrive!
The maister longeth a litil and lasheth a lesse,
Twineth hem twein and toucheth a treble.
'Tik, tak, hic, hac, tiket, taket, tik, tak,
Lus, bus, lus, das'. Swich lif they leden,
Alle clothemeres, Christ hem give sorwe!
May no man for brenwateres on night han his rest.

I think it should end with a ?
Here & hem are native but strangely he uses Scandinavian They for native Hie. (He=He, Heo[later Hie]=She, Hie=They became confusing!)
Swarte: Swarthy, Black[ened]. Smeked, Smoked. Den, din. Dintes make Dents. Cammede kongons: editor gives 'snub-nosed' or 'crooked' 'changelings', more likely crooked I would think, or maybe something to do with fire (German Kamin=Chimney). Brestes, bursts. Knavene, of knaves (workmen or chavs!). Gnacchen, Gnash. A bole hide, a bull's hide. Barm-felles, leather aprons (?!). Shankes, legs as in Shanks's Pony. Fere-flunderes, Fire-flinders (sparks). Rowten by row, Crash in turn. Dolful dreme, Doleful vision (editor gives 'Miserable racket'). Todrive, drive to destruction. Clothemeres clothe mares . Brenwateres burn water [quenching steel].
I do like that 'Christ give them sorrow'!
Arundel collection (south). The language is more archaic than Chaucer but the date 100 years later. It works in any sort of 'Ee lad' or 'oo-arr' accent as long as [i]everything is pronounced, including Gh (as Lough/Loch), long I probably as in 'refeined'. I can just hear those k'naven g'nawing and g'nashing!

From Geoff Chaucer a lamentatious anecdote: A mann did go in to a sshop and ax for Eyren, whereon andsweareþ him þe goodwif she can no Frensshe. Then sayeþ an oþer he meaneþ Eggs. Lo hwat sshalle menne in these da3es sa3en, Eggs or Eyren? [Ey native, Eggs Scandinavian with a French plural. 3: old silent G]. Printing came from Germany without Þ, Ð, 3, so they died out.

[bspider]

Sorry Val, I appreciate the effort that you put into that, but it's so hard to read I simply didn't! My loss I expect, but is there a "modern" translation?

(I possess a copy of the Anglo Saxon Chronicles at home. I would not expect to see posts here written in old Anglo-Saxon - unless Sky enables another foreign-language subforum, anyway :) - but the modern translation makes pretty interesting reading.)


Having said that...

As I've said before, the object here is communication. Well-written text where care has been taken with spelling and punctuation is easier to read, but I would rather see "txt-spk" here than nothing at all. Everyone please note that I would rather you posted in whatever fashion you choose than not to post at all, my comments are supposed to be positive criticism, not negative.

Boris.

[Crazyhorse]

You are missing the point Boris. What I assume Val is illustrating is that if we all resisted language change, then that is how we would still be writing. Shakespeare/Chaucer etc. would have just as much difficulty reading the level of English you want to preserve as they would reading the modern teenager version.

It is called evolution.

[Val]

I have to admit that I did it for amusement because each side has merit depending on context. Mainly it was to show that writing how you feel just becomes impossible, especially between dialects! There's always the old argument that Shakespeare spelt his name 3 different ways but that was before there was any standardisation and doesn't mean it was any easier. There's probably only about one in five could read anyway to any extent. Txtspk is fine and I use it myself - 4 txt msgs. It becomes a strain to read for anything long and for that matter, I would have thought a strain to write. You get that sort of thing in very ancient languages, usually ones before there was a definite alphabet and in Japanese so hippopotamus, big bird, squiggly thing might read the same as two snakes, and an eye. But then you have to work each word out like some kind of puzzle and that's the point: we don't read letter by letter, we read by recognising each word. That's why English and French spelling can be 600 years out of date but it doesn't matter.

By the way, 'Swarte-smeked smethes' is a genuine poem in Anglo-Saxon style. Which I guess was pretty good for describing going berserk in the mead-hall before slaying 100 warriors single-handed and ripping the limbs off monsters but doesn't sound up to much in the lyrical love poetry department.

[Val]

Godzelpus thinking ye olde worlde has made me wonder about doing a wet male parody on Sam Pepys stuck in the pillory.

[Indigo]

Textspeak isn't new, of course.

We used to do something very similar in concept whenever we sent a telegram, did we not?

But nobody ever wrote a novel in telegramwrite, did they?

(I've really set myself up here, haven't I, for some nerd to come forward with an obscure 1920s privately published novel which WAS written all in telegramwrite ...

[Frodo]

We have a number of posters here for whom English is not their primary language. They make the effort to write in English, and they are often more correct and readable than I sometimes manage. They have something to say, and they want us to read and understand it. I appreciate those who care about their audience.

[Val]

There's a good point about the foreigners. They may know English to read but not to speak at all. After all, there's many an English person can write more grammatical French than the French but can't make themselves understood at all. I had a job once asking for a toothbruch I'd forgotten in Zuerich because they have a very 've haff vays' accent and my Zahnbuerste came across as Zahnpaste (tooth-paste). There might even be a difference between txtspk in different dialects.

BTW the book has a prose translation of the 'Smiths' poem but I don't intend to repeat the lot!
When it comes to pronunciation, this meant nothing to me because I learnt 'reconstructed' pronunciation where Caesar is pronounce Kaisar, but an old public school extended pun depending entirely on a now disused pronunciation: Caesar adsum jam forte, Pompey aderat. (Caesar I am here by chance, Pompey was here)

[bspider]

You are missing the point Boris. What I assume Val is illustrating is that if we all resisted language change, then that is how we would still be writing. Shakespeare/Chaucer etc. would have just as much difficulty reading the level of English you want to preserve as they would reading the modern teenager version.

It is called evolution.I don't mind evolution, I'm just not in favour of revolution where it makes communication difficult. The pace of change matters, here. :)

Boris.

[bspider]

Caesar adsum jam forte, Pompey aderat. (Caesar I am here by chance, Pompey was here)I, too have learnt to use the hard 'K' sound instead of the soft 'C' when reading Latin (names, anyway, I'm no scholar) and had to re-read that wonderful line twice before I got it... :)

With reference to the second language point: I'm positive that I learnt more English grammar in my French lessons than I ever did in English class.

Boris.

[Indigo]

With reference to the second language point: I'm positive that I learnt more English grammar in my French lessons than I ever did in English class.

Boris.


I can well believe it: I can usually tell, from an English writer's English grammar, whether they have ever studied Latin or not.

[Val]

[quote="bspiderWith reference to the second language point: I'm positive that I learnt more English grammar in my French lessons than I ever did in English class.

Boris.[/quote]

I remember being at school with an French bloke (damned good cartoonist) by the unlikely name of Timothy O'Reilly Nash (Irish father) but had a strong Parisian accent. Failed his French O levels because he couldn't understand the English to translate and half of what he wrote was street Argot

[~*~ k a t e ~*~]

If you mdudle the ltteres up in a snetecne it is sitll psosilbe to raed it at the smae seped as lnog as the frist and lsat ltteers are in the rgiht palce. Tihs is bceasue the mnid deosn't raed ecah ltteer in trun, but rtaher the wrod as a wohle.

[aquarian]

Something to do with our reading "schema" I guess. However, it took me far longer than normal I am afraid, Kate. Perhaps your statement could be true of sentences with one moved letter, but being, unashamedly one of a high reading speed, that truly slowed me down.

Val....I had never encountered that pun in my Latin days....I never got beyond giggling about the word for divers ( urinatores)....so thank you.

Which version of The ASC was it please Boris?.....My favourite is C....quite a bitch to stay awake during, but informative, however. Then again, if one cares how legitimate Edgar The Atheling's claim to the English throne was, I am sure it is thoroughly riveting.

Aquarian

( ps....i am not actually intellectually ostentatious....or perhaps I am just having utilized the word ostentatious...lol/....oh well)

[WT]

I could read Kate's words at the same speed as normal - mind you, I have two dyslexic friends, but I couldn't stop my brain making my eyes do a 'read restart' and going back to try again because it found what it saw as rather unlikely.

It looks like the output of a monkey on a typewriter that's been given some LSD! :shock: :wink: :lol: (and I hasten to add that I am making absolutely no allegations about Kate!)

[Frodo]

Kate's example illustrated a phenomenon I have seen before, and I read it with relative ease. Of course, I have spent much of my career reading the writings of dyslexic students, and I recall one lad who only got the first letter and the word length correct, with all other letters being seemingly random. Most of us can adapt and interpret if we work at it, but how many of us really want to on this board?

[bloom061604]

If you mdudle the ltteres up in a snetecne it is sitll psosilbe to raed it at the smae seped as lnog as the frist and lsat ltteers are in the rgiht palce...
Kate, are you fcnuikg with our minds?

—Bloom

[bspider]

If you mdudle the ltteres up in a snetecne it is sitll psosilbe to raed it at the smae seped as lnog as the frist and lsat ltteers are in the rgiht palce...
Kate, are you fcnuikg with our minds?

—Bloom
Thanks for bringing a smile back to a sometimes dry discussion, bloom! :)

Kate: I've noticed this phenomenon before, it's one of the things that makes proffreading so hard...
;)

Boris.

[Indigo]

Not to mention unnecessary ...